User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Posted Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:33 pm

I don't do this kind of post often (or ever), but it's time to talk about the ZZ9000 a little bit beyond simply cheering for new hardware to hit the Amiga scene. And I love to cheer (and financially support it) as much as anyone. But I want to talk a little deeper about this amazing, and expensive, piece of hardware filled with promise(s).
zztop1.jpg
I *want* to love this card so badly.


Note: if you have a PAL machine that uses the zz9000, this rant probably does not apply to you.

I ordered mine back in January of 2020. We're fast approaching 2 years since that order went through. The pre-orders started back in 2018. The potential, at the time, seemed tremendous. And I suppose for some across the pond, the video modes totally deliver.

I'd been eyeing getting one for a while, but was sincerely worried about full NTSC support and focus. So I contacted Lukas, the genius inventor and proprietor of MNT Research GmbH, directly.

Amiga Love:
I hope this isn’t a dumb question. I just wanted to make sure - will the ZZ9000 work with NTSC machines? I’ve got a spare A3000 (16Mhz) I’m thinking of throwing some love.
Lukas:
Legit question! The answer is yes, it works with NTSC.

Technically, it does work in NTSC machines as long as you only select the zz9000's video modes. However, the native NTSC video modes are an utter mess, which are supposed to have some sort of support with this card. The zz9000 P96 RTG modes? Jaw-droppingly awesome in many circumstances. Native NTSC modes? Total no-go. And this is nearly 2 years later in my case, if you don't consider how long the card had been in development before release.
zztop2.jpg
The batch my card was in shipped with a defect which a local friend fixed for me. We all stood around him, holding our breath, as he cut a nearly invisible trace. It worked - my card is good to go.


I have local Seattle friends, very knowledgeable Amiga fans who are engineers by trade, pulling the card out and replacing it with 25 year old alternatives because they've given up hope for any meaningful change with the status quo.

Incredibly, a new audio module for the ZZ is in the works and can be pre-ordered for a potential December 2021 ship date.

And a new firmware update (Release 1.9) just went out. So it's actively being worked on and modified.

But, realistically, only for PAL folks.

One of my local friends told me today:
Yeah, non-starter for me, and means I still have an Indivision installed/don't use the P96 modes. [The zz9000] is just sitting in there providing Ethernet, which sometimes requires a reboot to make it work.
That's one really expensive kinda janky ethernet card ($450 USD not including shipping)!

And scan doubling basic OCS modes? Nope. Video is corrupted after the first time you test a P96 video mode until you fully power cycle the machine.

Maybe if you live in PAL Land life is beautiful. But many of the customers on this side of the pond - and there are quite a few - feel like 2nd class citizens.

To be clear, I don't think our being ignored is intentional. It's simply not in front of the active devs, so we get left behind. Should we go buy PAL machines over here to see what the fuss is all about? That's not the point. The card is sold to support NTSC, so we bought it. But it's only ½ supported at best. And the other features of the card - USB and Ethernet - pale in comparison to other products on the market that are readily available. At the end of the day, it's all about the video capabilities.

Please, mnt, stop trying to invent new hardware for a little while and focus on the current installed base to deliver on the original promises. We aren't getting any younger. On paper, this card had the potential to be the most unbelievable, mind blowing Amiga video (and beyond) upgrade - one could argue - of all time. It would at least be the most transformative in 20 years.

As it stands, I wouldn't really miss it that much if I pulled it out. I honestly wouldn't give a flip at all. It serves only 1 purpose for me right now - 1024x768 via HDMI. That's it. Everything else it promised? That gets an eye-roll from me. At what point does the term "beta" convert into "this is what it is" for the rest of us?

Bottom line: if you are someone in the US/Canada/Japan regions who owns and runs NTSC machines as your daily driver, I can't recommend this card anymore unless you only want to use one of the ZZ's screen modes. That's it. Everywhere else in the world that uses PAL? Well, go for it. Must be nice.

/rant

Disclosure: I do not own any PAL machines. But I have a friend who says the PAL modes work perfectly on one of his A2000s. Also, Lukas is aware of these issues.

User avatar
Acill

Posted Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:43 pm

I have no issues, bit did when I was using my U2410 monitor with it in the begining. I moved over to an Asus now and zero issues. I'm using it in an NTSC A4000. Have you tried other monitors?

User avatar
Kevin Brice
Seattle, WA
YouTube

Posted Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:47 pm

Acill wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:43 pm
I have no issues, bit did when I was using my U2410 monitor with it in the begining. I moved over to an Asus now and zero issues. I'm using it in an NTSC A4000. Have you tried other monitors?
What issues were you having with the U2410? I’ve tried a few monitors, though half of them are various Dell models, and interlaced NTSC video modes simply don’t work for me. I’m on an ECS Amiga 2000 using the Denise adapter.

User avatar
Acill

Posted Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:26 pm

With the U2410 it just wouldnt output very well in native screen modes. It would be blank most times or garbled.

I have been testing NTSC screens all night. No issues on 1.9 at all for me, and I never had any in 1.8 as well. I have been posting images in my discord chat over in the Amiga Hardware channel if anyone wants to join and talk about it you are welcome. Here is a new invite link to join.

https://discord.gg/7pEJQNN5DX

User avatar
Acill

Posted Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:29 pm

Kevin Brice wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:47 pm
Acill wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:43 pm
I have no issues, bit did when I was using my U2410 monitor with it in the begining. I moved over to an Asus now and zero issues. I'm using it in an NTSC A4000. Have you tried other monitors?
What issues were you having with the U2410? I’ve tried a few monitors, though half of them are various Dell models, and interlaced NTSC video modes simply don’t work for me. I’m on an ECS Amiga 2000 using the Denise adapter.
I have seen issues with some interlaced modes, that is true, but games and native modes have been great.

User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Posted Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:49 am

I want to give an update. This post has been brought to Lukas' attention and he's working very diligently in trying to understand everyone's issues with native (and interlaced native) modes on NTSC.

He's very engaged and trying to assist. He's aware of the issues many are having now. He even has his own NTSC A3000 (which isn't showing many of the same issues, oddly, which makes QA harder). But he's trying to sort through things and get a deeper understanding of the issues at hand.

User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Posted Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:20 pm

Some very exciting developments since this post went out.

From Lukas himself, just moments ago:
For those NTSC users that can , please try this new rev and report back your results. Lukas is watching, waiting and ready to act! :boing: <3

User avatar
A1-X1000
Toronto, Canada

Posted Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:08 pm

@ intric8

that's great for ZZ9000 customers <3

User avatar
A10001986
1986

Posted Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:30 pm

Still no-go. Jumper on NTSC, WB NTSC, leads to a 720x576@50Hz vertically compressed "NTSC" screen. I had the same results with 1.8 already.

It appears the card needs to be run on PAL once before it can switch to NTSC, which it then does correctly.

User avatar
Kevin Brice
Seattle, WA
YouTube

Posted Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:54 am

Well, it’s been over two months, and apart from the (appreciated) quick action on a regression introduced with 1.9, and a respin of the installer due to an installation bug, things have been pretty silent. If there isn’t news by the end of January. I’m likely to just pull the ZZ entirely. Which sucks, especially because I preordered the ZZ9000AX. But NTSC Interlaced being broken is a dealbreaker for me.

Is anyone else here using the Denise adapter? Does NTSC Interlaced work for you?





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